Redstate

This "story" kinds of reminds me of the South Park episode where some townspeople were trapped in an elevator during a storm, and decided to resort to cannibalism after an hour and a half.

Ridiculous.  Sounds like something you'd see on NBC.

... is that you have a man like Randall Robinson who uses his access to the public square to do this. Personally I think Robinson is a racist and the worst kind of demagog, but there are many blacks who listen to him. And he has chosen to contribute to the situation in New Orleans and race relations in America by doing this kind of thing.

When Pat Robertson or Jerry Falway have made outrageous "declarations" on some of their pet causes there is a steady stream of condemnation from all sides of the political spectrum. But if some nitwit like Robinson spews this bilge criticism is muted. And I suspect we all know why.

but at the same time, it's fair to be realistic.  If this disaster occurred in someplace like Westchester County, NY or Orange County, CA it's reasonable to wonder if a National Guard response would have been a step quicker.  

Comments like

after four whole days without Twinkies or collard greens or whatever

certainly can only be intended to fan this particular flame.

My own 2 cents:  the Mayor and Governor of LA didn't respond effectively on the evacuation of NO.  I think we'll see this become a more widespread conclusion as time passes.  In a similar vein, I'm not handing out any gold stars to the Dept of Homeland Security/FEMA either.  

"Blacks in New Orleans have resorted to cannibalism after four whole days without Twinkies or collard greens or whatever"

Your comment above proves your insensitivity to the issue, and hence validates the argument these angry black leaders are making, now doesn't it? You are an obvious racist (deny it if you must, but then explain the above comment - Collard greens?) and your indifference to their plight is equally apparent.

If these were wealthy white folks in an affluent neighborhood eating the dead to survive, Bush would have ordered every available man, woman and child to the scene, and you would instead be here reeling in HORROR at the sheer sadness of it all, not making racist comments and acting as if they deserve this tragedy.

I hope you don't kid yourself into thinking you are some kind of christian with that stinking indifference for human suffering.

If these were wealthy white folks in an affluent neighborhood eating the dead to survive, Bush would have ordered every available man, woman and child to the scene, and you would instead be here reeling in HORROR at the sheer sadness of it all, not making racist comments and acting as if they deserve this tragedy.

You moron - nobody is eating anybody - white or black.  Besides, if it only takes 3 days for cannibalism to start, there is way more going on than just hunger.

..explain to me how I'd be making a mistake to think this was an incredibly offense slur.

Unbelievable.

Let me state, to start, that I believe J. Steele is correct.  Though I'm not entirely certain what his point was, nor was I able to weave together a thesis from his admitted lack of supporting material, it is evident that he makes funny "asides" about blacks who have different cullinary tastes than he.  I can suppose, then, that Mr. Steele dines in a more refined fashion, as do I.  I don't eat this "colored people food," nor will I ever.

Now there could be something said for the lowest cost housing existing in the deepest sections of the city, but to suggest that Bush or Cheney constructed New Orleans this way is silly business.  The blacks moved there.  I'm sure someone told them they could drown if it ever filled up.  

Let them die.  More real estate for me.

Stay there. Next time, Clayton gets involved, and you don't want that.

You chose to take the "Twinkie" phrase out context. It was intended to accentuate just how really ludicrous his remarks about cannibalism are. Robinson is saying that the moral and societal standards of blacks in New Orleans are so weak that it took only four days to descend into cannibalism --- a gross insult to the people he claims to be defending.

And why? All for the sake of a cheap racist shot.

By what distorted view of reality can you impute blatant racism from my inclusion of collard greens? Because it a "Known Fact™" among liberals that only poor blacks eat collard greens and therefore I must be some sort of unreconstructed Southern KKK member? Collard greens, although not a particular favorite of mine, are a popular dish among all races here in the South, and not just the poor.

Since the use of the term 'collard greens' makes make me an unrepentant racist and I cannot, in your enlightened view, legitimately deny that I am a racist I will not even try; far be it from me to attempt to resurrect my image and be worthy of your recognition.

Perhaps then you can explain to one so unworthy and racist as myself how Robinson can assert that the moral and societal standards of blacks in New Orleans is so low that it takes only four days to descend to cannibalism. Why no outrage over that bit of blatant racism? Robinson is black so he can't be stupid or racist?

---------------

... explain to me how mentioning collard greens, a popular dish among all races here in the South, is an incredibly offensive slur. I don't particularly like them myself but I've never had any of my black friends accuse me of racism because I don't like them.

Dimwit.

heh

I'm not going to give away exactly where I live, but it somewhere south of the Mason Dixon line - although not that far south of it. I grew up in Alaska, most non-southern of all states.

When I first read the "twinkies and collard greens" line, it struck me as a little off, too. However, upon consultation with some folks who live in the DEEP south, I learned that it was, in fact, a dish enjoyed by folks of all races, particularly in southern Louisiana. Frankly, I can't understand why anyone could even tolerate the smell of them, but it takes different strokes, as they say.

The point is, sometimes we scream at each other because we aren't willing to walk a mile in each others' shoes. So, I think it would be helpful for you both to cool off a bit.

but to give the comment the benefit of the doubt.

Alarm bells went off--that's all.

Thanks. But I will not sit back and be accused of being a racist on the basis on something as stupid as referring to collard greens while attempting to point out that Randall Robinson is the worst kind of racist demagog.

And you are right about collard greens. But my friends are more considerate than to serve them to me :-)

What I was trying to get you to understand is that it's not a liberal perception that only black people eat collard greens. It's a northern one.

And I'm telling you that even I, who knows you are not a racist, was struck by that comment. So, while I'd certainly not appreciate being called one either, you've made your case and he's agreed to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Emotions are running high on the site over the last two days, and it'd be best to see them go the other way.

coming from Kentucky I'm also aware of the popularity of collard greens.  Had some myself last night with cornbread, ham and beans.  However, this is simple dissembling.  You know, or at least should know, that is NOT the context of how the phrase was being used.  To suggest otherwise seems pretty disingenous.

about saying northern liberal but changed my mind.

My comments was certainly not intended as racist. I was upset that Robinson, who claims to speak in support of poor black Americans, chose to circulate some stupid rumor about cannabalism. Robinson clearly intended his rumor to be inflamatory but ended up saying that morals and standards are so low that poeple will resort to cannabalism after only three or four days.

Things are tough enough for folks along the Gulf coast right now without having some b*astard like Robinson pouring gasoline on the fire while hiding behind good intentions.

I live in the South. I make collards or turnip greens about once a week. They're good with cornbread.

Last time I checked, I wasn't black.

On a more serious note ... that charge of cannabalism cannot be substantiated.

But, brace yourself for yet another political circus here in the US ...

Explanation:

Zoeller's comments at the Masters were: "That little boy is driving well and he's putting well. He's doing everything it takes to win. So, you know what you guys do when he gets in here? You pat him on the back and say congratulations and enjoy it and tell him not serve fried chicken next year. Got it?"

Then Zoeller smiled, snapped his fingers, and walked away. Then he turned and added, "or collard greens or whatever the hell they serve."

I understand what you mean, and being from the South I eat my fair share of collard greens because they're delicious.

But certain foods, collard greens among them, have been somehow twisted into slurs against people. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with eating fried chicken, collard greens, watermelon, whatever, but somehow they've become code words among some in our society that stand in for "degenerate black culture." Don't ask me why, but that's your "explanation" as much as I can give it. Food, eaten by all races, used as racist code words. Pretty weird, though I'm assuming you know all this and am mainly commenting to help out our neighbors to the North understand this.

Anyway, I trust you when you say you meant nothing racially by your comments, but I don't think that the looks askance at your phrasing was completely unwarranted.

I will admit that it might have been more artfully constructed but I was attempting to be hyperbolic while I was "talking" to Robinson. That he was so disconnecteed from reality that he would, in effect, accuse New Orleans blacks of being so weak, or undisciplined or whatever that they could adopt cannabalism at the drop of a hat. That anyone could blithly repeat such a rumor like that about people of any race in this situation for cheap political gain simply irritated me.

Unfortunately, the outrageousness of Mr. Robinson's remarks have been lost in a fussilade against your humble raporteur. But it is an interesting lesson; that we remain so sensitive to race that a seemingly innocuous reference can be interpreted as racist. No day is a loss if you learn something.

But I hope you aren't surprised by the reaction to your phrasing.

Why not just say "food or water" next time?

Leon,

I know you're right when you say this:

Emotions are running high on the site over the last two days, and it'd be best to see them go the other way.

and I appreciate your call for restraint.  With the acknowledgement that my emotions are probably as high as anyone's right now, I want to point out that there have been a few comments that have really raised some flags for me here lately.

A few days ago there was this comment in which the implication that whites are smarter than other races was unchallenged, with the exception of a brief comment by me that went unanswered.  Today, there was this.  I'm glad that it got answered by a couple of commentators, and I hope the editors answer it as well.  And now we have this comment that sparked the whole mess I'm posting in right now.  

My two cents on the collard greens:  Addison did a nice job downthread explaining that food gets used as racist code words.  It brought me back to the day in New Orleans when I was a chaperone in a Mardi Gras parade for the all-black middle school band where I was a teacher.  They were walking through a largely white section of this very segregated city, and I heard a parade-goer say, "Anyone got any watermelon slices to throw at these kids?" Maybe it is because I'm not Southern, but collard greens would have sounded just as bad to me as the watermelon did.  (A block later, I heard "Those girls are so good at tapdancing because they have all that practice dancing on the cockroaches in the projects.")  

I guess my larger point is that, while none of these comments taken alone are particularly blatant, the reason I feel compelled to say something here is that it's unusual that I see even one comment on RedState that makes me think "racism."  And now, in a short span, three separate comments have made me do a double-take.  With the understanding that the editors can't be everywhere at once, and the appreciation for your acknowledgement of concerns in this thread (and Thomas' elsewhere)--in my opinion, it isn't healthy for RedState when liberals are the most vocal, and in some cases the only, ones expressing concern with racially charged prose.

Clearly, many, many of us are worn out and short right now.  Maybe that's why these comments are coming out the way they are.  Maybe that's why I'm noticing them.  But, honestly, I have too much respect for RedState and the good work you all do here every day to let them go by without comment.

I just have a quick minute, but I did want to address your post.

The two comments you linked to were made by folks that have been around quite a while.  In the case of the serial killer, I don't think thier intent was to imply that whites were smarter.  I think they were arguing the point that a serial killer is more likely to be white.  I could be off base, but I don't see where racism is coming into play there.  Both users are fair minded commenters and I just don't see them doing that.

As for the second comment regarding Kayne, I'm going to have to agree with the poster.  Racism cuts both ways and his comments were way out of line and most definitely racist.

Now, onto the food comments.  I'm a southern white girl and while I think they are smelly and nasty, all of my family, especially the older ones eat collards greens.  And I have consumed enough watermelon (and fried chicken for that matter) to feed many several times over.  To me, when I hear folks throwing out some of those food terms, it actually seems like a slam on country folk to me.

What you experienced in the parade was racism, pure and simple. It does still exist and again, it cuts both ways.

I can't remember which thread it was, but just today krempasky took hunter, another frequent user, to task over his KKK comments regarding Kos and Kayne.  I don't think the editors will let blatant racism stand, even when things just suck like they do right now.

Just my two cents and perspective.

Cheers!

in Chile took about two weeks before they started eating the dead, and even then they were extremely reluctant to do so.

I am thinking four days is a bit too soon to start eating the dead.

everywhere.

They were frequently cooked in my own home growing up, although I admit I couldn't stand them until I was much older.

Collards cooked with a little pepper sauce-very yummy.

Sorry for the delayed response. I've been gone all day and just returned.

FWIW, I personally noticed both of those comments as well. Regarding the first one, I really did think it was something of a slip, and I thought you did a fair job of discrediting it. Given, however, that the poster was attributing a higher intelligence to whites in the context of serial killing I decided to let it pass. The last two days have been difficult, accusations of racism have been flying unchecked, and that was fairly innocuous compared to the imbroglio that was forming.

Regarding the second post, I think it's valid to call Kanye West a racist. Black people can be racist, too, and in a role reversal situation, a white man saying the same things would unquestionably be called racist. If your complaint is about "he was probably high," I'd say that's a more charitable explanation than believing that he was sober and said those things.

I dunno. We are trying to keep a lid on stuff as much as we can, and still have some posters around when all this is done. Givne the general behavior by some on both sides, this is easier said than done.

Thanks much for your kind tone even though we're in disagreement.  It's much appreciated.  To explain my take on the two comments I linked:

The text I found objectionable in the first was

"Maybe serial killers...are smarter than your average killer. But beyond that I don't see why they would be more likely to be white."  

I understood this poster to be saying that serial killers' whiteness was the only likely reason that they are smarter than most killers.  The fact that whites are over-represented among the ranks of serial killers isn't something I dispute, but I don't think that's what the phrase I quoted was getting at.

There were two things in the Kanye West comment that bothered me. The first was "he was probably high."  I saw that clip, and he was clearly emotional, but there was no evidence of drug use that I could see.  There are lots of ways to slam Kanye (lots of ways I would agree with) and lots of reasons to tread lightly, IMO, around black men and drugs.  It's a stereotype that's out there, and it's hurtful, and I don't think it should be thrown at people absent evidence.  The second was the "dumb constituency who relies on you for handouts" bit, which I would hope would speak for itself.

To be clear, I'm not defending West's statements--I'm not really addressing them at all.  I'm addressing the statements made by a poster who I think could have been clearer and less offensive.

I offer these thoughts in large part because of my esteem for RedState.  Lots of folks around here have expressed frustration at being tarred as racist, despite working toward ends in direct opposition to racism.  I think these comments are the sort that could make that situation worse, rather than help alleviate it.

Thanks for getting back to me.  You must be exhausted.  A lot of what I would respond to you would just be repetitions of what I said to c17wife above, so I'll cut those out.  Just a bit about Kanye West.

I didn't say it was invalid to call him a racist.  I don't disagree that black people can be racists.  That isn't at all what I was attempting to get at.  I don't think it is charitable to say he was high, I think it is condescending at best (call him a liar, call him an opportunist, but don't say that because he couldn't be more wrong that he must not know what he's saying), and pandering to hurtful stereotypes at worst.  

I will get off this now, but I felt like it needed to be said.

I'm pretty danged Southern, and I don't know anyone under the age of 60, white, black, whatever, who can stand collard greens. I went through a brief flirtation with them in my misspent youth, but for the most part, they make me nauseous now.

Your concerns are valid ones. I, personally, have let too much silliness get by on a pass around here lately, for a whole host of reasons. My apologies. Everyone else is overloaded too, right now.

One note on what jsteele said: I understand both how he meant it and how it could be taken amiss. I got the pleasure of being called a racist for describing dKos posters as "gibbering yard apes," as I figured most folks knew that "yard apes" means "children." Apparently not.

The point of all this is, I understand both your reaction and his. And Leon's right: We're all a bit hyped up right now. And you were gracious to put it the way you did.

and a lousy one at that.  He went back to dkos and posted his "they banned me even though I was nice" diary.  His name is Floridaexgop and he's a real winner over there too.

I will address only this one:

the "dumb constituency who relies on you for handouts" bit

This is one of those 'worldview' things on which liberals and conservatives simply do not see eye to eye. To most conservatives, what liberal Democrats have done to poor urban blacks is a disgrace. They have kept human beings as pets... housing, feeding, and clothing human beings while performing animal husbandry experiments on them. "Let's see what happens if we separate the males from the females; we'll put the males in a different barracks with bars on the windows."

Liberals call this "compassion" or "caring for the poor." It is not. It is treating human beings like animals.

This is probably 25 years ago now, but I still remember this kid who sued the DC school district because they had made him valedictorian of his high school class, and when he got to college he discovered that he could not read. He was furious. The college told him his reading was about 6th-grade level. He'd been tricked. Every kid in that high school had been tricked. They'd been told they were doing well. He'd been told he was "valedictorian." Then he gets out in the real world and finds out it was all a sham. He'd been had, by what Bush calls "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

I agree it takes a certain cynicism, and perhaps a misreading of liberals' intentions, to conclude that liberals have fostered this 'culture of dependency' in order to trap this constituency in perpetual poverty so that they can be exploited as voters. But it is not at all off the mark to observe that this has been the result.

And so the comment you referred to is not a racist slam, it is a poltical slam. It is aimed at misguided liberals who think that keeping human beings as pets is the height of moral superiority.

I agree it takes a certain cynicism, and perhaps a misreading of liberals' intentions, to conclude that liberals have fostered this 'culture of dependency' in order to trap this constituency in perpetual poverty so that they can be exploited as voters.

Yes.  Perhaps.

And so the comment you referred to is not a racist slam, it is a poltical slam.

Given the totality of the post from which the "dumb constituency" line came, I don't think it was unreasonable for me to read that as more of the arena of racism than that of politics.  Even if it was a political slam, as you say, (I'm certainly willing to admit that that's possible) I think the original poster could have easily made that point in a way less subject to misinterpretation.

In any case, there's clearly more than sufficient evidence to warrant a conversation about the actual effects of policies and programs aimed at addressing poverty.  To say, one presumes with a straight face, that liberal Democrats have kept human beings as pets (along with your other insights above) indicates to me that you're not interested in that conversation.  Again, I could be wrong.

The thing that's so frustrating to me here, Nick, is that that conversation is important.  It isn't just another showcase for cleverness--people's lives depend upon it.  But reading what you wrote here, I can't imagine actually letting my guard down far enough to talk about it with you.

Finally, I need to say that I'm not in my best mind right now.  I am tired, and worried sick, and more sensitive than I might normally be--especially about race, poverty, and New Orleans.  If I've snapped at you or gone off unfairly, that isn't how I meant it.

Look you can throw up whatever line of defense you want, and in fact I was laughing at the downstream comments trying to turn it into an issue of "Heck, even I like/dislike collard greens!" Clearly you're all trying to step out from in front of your own bullet on this one. Your comment was coded racism, akin to saying fried chicken and watermelon, and you know it (though I would never expect you to admit it, naturally).

"how Robinson can assert that the moral and societal standards of blacks in New Orleans is so low that it takes only four days to descend to cannibalism. Why no outrage over that bit of blatant racism?"

Nice back-peddle! Bush would be proud that you are so adept at changing your own words to suit the current need. You never said anything in your post that has ANYTHING to do with this above statement and therefore it's so out of left field I won't even bother except to say: What would be the morally/socially acceptable way to get food and water, after four days without? Your comment seems to say "Those craven neanderthals, it only took them four short days to starve!"

I'm sure you're just real tore up over Robinson's racist comments, so much so that you responded in kind. I'm equally sure your "moral and societal standards" are blemish-free...

You have nothing to add to this discussion except for accusations of racism and idiot ad hominems.

My mistake. I thought you were here in good faith. Mea maxima culpa.

Goodbye.

A proper answer to this would be its own diary. Can I use your note above in a future diary entry?

... about tossing the "racist" card on the table and saying that one can't deny it is that you have eliminated any possible response; it simply ends the argument with the "perpetrator" twisting slowing in the wind.

That's the reason that particular card works so well for the like of Randall Robinson, Jesse Jackson et al.

Regardless of your denial of my right to contest your allegation of racism, I am not now, never have been and never will be a racist. "When did you stop beating your wife."